This show originally aired on Oct. 18, 2017. This is part two of a series I did with Brian Godawa on my radio show. In it we discussed Preterism vs Futurism views of the Last Days. In this one we focused a lot more on how Scripture should be interpreted. Is it all literal? Is it “poetic” and “metaphorical” or perhaps a combination of all of the above? What about ideas of dual-fulfillment prophecy? These were the questions we tried to tackle in this one, while leaving room for much more dialogue to come.
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2 Peter 3:10 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed. Has nothing to do with physical heavens and physical earth. "elements" has nothing to do with the periodic table of elements. Heaven and Earth in the 1st Century Jewish mind referred to the Temple which epitomized the Old Covenant.
Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, you who desire to be subject to the law, will you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and the other by a free woman. 23 One, the child of the slave, was born according to the flesh; the other, the child of the free woman, was born through the promise. 24 Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One woman, in fact, is Hagar, from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia[g] and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,
“Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children,
burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs;
for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous
than the children of the one who is married.”
28 Now you,[h] my friends,[i] are children of the promise, like Isaac. 29 But just as at that time the child who was born according to the flesh persecuted the child who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the scripture say? “Drive out the slave and her child; for the child of the slave will not share the inheritance with the child of the free woman.” 31 So then, friends,[j] we are children, not of the slave but of the free woman.
Hagar=Jerusalem=Old Covenant with her Children. Sarah=New Jerusalem=New Covenant with her Children. Christians are Children of the New Covenant and the whole Old Covenant was "driven out" in AD70 with the Destruction of the Jerusalem and its Temple ie the Old Covenant.
I'm a full Preterist and agree and disagree with what Brian Godawa believes. What has solidified my understanding that the Full Preterist interpretation is the truth has to do first with all the time statements attached to the New Testament 2nd Coming of Christ. 2nd, its the 7 feasts of Yahweh as fulfilled by Yeshua in the 1st Century. These 7 feasts are significant because they also mirror the Exodus. NT Exodus (from Old Covenant to the New) starts with Christ's death as our Passover. Christ dies and is buried on the 14th of Nisan. He is in the Grave on the 15th of Nisan (1st day of unleavened bread) until Sunday 17th of Nisan (Feast of Firstfruits), 50 days later on Sunday (Feast of Weeks, Pentecost), the Holy Spirit falls on the 120, about 40 years later in AD70 The last 3 feasts are fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in the month Tishri which is the same month the last 3 feasts are celebrated. OT Exodus starts with Passover, they leave immediately on the 15th to the Gulf of Aquaba during the Feast of Unleavened bread. They cross the red sea and come out of the red sea on the morning of the day of the Feast of Firstfruits. 50 days later Yahweh comes down on the Mount and gives Torah to Moses (Christians are not given the Law we are given the Spirit) which is the Feast of Weeks. About 40 years later Yahweh destroys Jericho on the last feast, the Feast of Tabernacles. There is no exact date in Scripture for the destruction of Jericho, but the Jews commemorated the destruction of Jericho on the Feast of Tabernacles in the Water pouring Ritual, when on the last day of the feast they encircled the altar 7 times. Take it or leave. If you believe it great, if not great.
Hey Rob, great interview with Brian and show, I've listened to both parts and found them really interesting. I wanted to add some insight that the Lord has given me over the years that may help with understanding how the scriptures should be interpreted. You both bring up great points in many areas regarding idioms of ancient cultures versus modern interpretation in a vacuum of that reality; I've also heard Dr. Michael Heiser make the same point. My main thought is that the Apostles seemed to very clearly tell us how and why they interpreted Old Testament scriptures in the manner they did, especially regarding Jesus/Yeshua.
First, let me say I strongly disagree with Brian's thought that the Apostles had some special authority separate from basically the power of the Holy Spirit to quote Old Testament scripture in an unorthodox way. Rather they were merely practicing what they taught others to do.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
1Co 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
This is both a great truth and a great spiritual lesson on how to interpret the Bible. We can use the physical to teach a lesson on the spiritual and the spiritual lesson is the truly important part that does not pass away. This answers the basic question of dual fulfillment that you both discussed throughout the interview and explains a very significant truth regarding Israel and Jesus. Let's take a look at the parallels.
1. Both Jesus and Israel are considered to be God's anointed. Israel was a type or foreshadowing of Jesus, where the nation of Israel failed in the flesh, Jesus succeeded in the spirit.
Isreal (Flesh)
Deu 7:6 "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
Israel (Spiritual – Body of Christ)
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
2. Both Jesus and Israel are called out of Egypt, both originally fled to Egypt to escape death. Israel escaped the famine and Jesus escaped Herod as a child.
Israel (Flesh)
Gen 47:27 Thus Israel settled in the land of Egypt, in the land of Goshen. And they gained possessions in it, and were fruitful and multiplied greatly.
Exo 13:3 Then Moses said to the people, "Remember this day in which you came out from Egypt, out of the house of slavery, for by a strong hand the LORD brought you out from this place. No leavened bread shall be eaten.
Israel (Spiritual – Body of Christ)
Mat 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him."
Mat 2:14 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt
Mat 2:15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt I called my son."
3. Both were baptized in water. Israel crossed the Red Sea, Jesus was baptized in the Jordan by John the Baptist.
Israel (Flesh)
Exo 14:22 And the people of Israel went into the midst of the sea on dry ground, the waters being a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.
Israel (Spiritual – Body of Christ)
Mat 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
Mat 3:17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."
4. Israel was disobedient and wandered the wilderness for 40 years as a punishment and did that generation did not enter the promised land. Jesus was obedient and tested in the wilderness for 40 days and proved himself worthy of the Kingdom of God.
Israel (Flesh)
Num 32:13 And the LORD's anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the LORD was gone.
Israel (Spiritual – Body of Christ)
Mat 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
Mat 4:2 And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
Mat 4:3 And the tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread."
Mat 4:4 But he answered, "It is written, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Mat 4:5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple
Mat 4:6 and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, "'He will command his angels concerning you,' and "'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
Mat 4:7 Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
Mat 4:9 And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me."
Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
Mat 4:11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.
5. Israel of was given the 10 Commandments and all the Old Covenant Laws (Law of Moses/Flesh) by God/Yahweh through Moses. Jesus was given the Law of the Spirit by the Father that supersedes the Law of Moses/Flesh, it is a higher law written on our hearts, not of stone.
Israel (Flesh)
All Torah verses pertaining to the Law of Moses (too many to show)
Israel (Spiritual – Body of Christ)
Jesus's sermon on the mount covers the Law of the Spirit and summed up in this:
Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.
Joh 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
There are even way more spiritual comparisons, such as Jesus being the "mana from heaven", a type of Joseph and more. You will always do well to study to find out what the spiritual meaning behind scripture is and not adhere to the letter of the law, for we no longer need the Tutor of the Old Covenant if we have the mind of Christ which through the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth and love.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
1Jn 2:17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.
Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
I know Rob that you believe that keeping the Torah and former feasts are part of your obedience in what you do unto the Lord. What I'm trying to convey to my brother in Christ, that I am not judging but trying to help out of love, is that we are not under the law anymore, we have the mind of Christ if indeed Christ lives in us and we no longer need the Tutor. I personally do not keep any special days or seasons, but neither do I judge the faith given to others who do. We will all give an account and my desire is to love all as Christ loved us with a godly love. The Law of Moses is meant to bring us unto the Law of the Spirit, a higher law. So don't hold onto the shadow when Christ has revealed the truth, the Holy Spirit.
Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.